I know the bottom image. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . After this, the firearm is examined to make sure it is still intact and if so, the metal (usually the barrel) is stamped with . The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Belgian Best Shotguns - CHUCKHAWKS.COM Thank y'all again! and an eagles head. Any idea how to date it? Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. The Baby Browning: A .25 ACP Pocket Pistol For Personal Protection HI, John. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Can you send me some, Ed? As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." The lack of chamber length probably means it was made before 1892.Is there a name on it? Belgium Leige - The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com M Mecar (4 P) Pages in category "Firearm manufacturers of Belgium" Seen Belgian Liege gunmakers Without a photo, I can't add anything to what you already know: it's a handgun made in Belgium. Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. Bernard Emile & Cie Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Blogger Baltus - Wilmotte Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques You can tell an unaltered pin-fire by the vertical slot in the breech extending to the top of the barrel (and, of course, the absence of a firing pin). The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Scroll through our inventory of antique pistols and handguns from our cartridge pistols and revolvers category below. barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. proof marks. Serial Numbers. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". When Was My Gun Made? Firearm Dates by Serial Number - SkyAboveUs Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to Revolvers are marked on barrel, on the frame, and on each chamber. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . We now have 1689 serial numbers!. It was mandatory post-1924. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. The Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they for exports be able towithstand a proscribed load without damage. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Closset Louis Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Chartier Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Project Upland. Price guide for BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. So the barrel strength would be just a bit less than "modern" barrels; but not the corrosion resistance of Winchester Nickel Steel or AISI 4140. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum firearms. Proof Marks or Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Belgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 preBelgium double barrel 16 Gauge SN 13938 pre 1898 fine old Belgium imported exposed hammer shotgun, Leige proofed, floral engraved receiver showing some; FINE 19C. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. stream These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. Any help would be appreciated. Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . Most double shotguns represented here. Or any info? Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Misc. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. The 1136 is engraved on the bottom of the barrel. Can be without star and ring. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Bodson N. The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Antique Shotguns (Pre-1899): Belgian Shotguns, Side by Side Shotguns Our inventory of antique shotguns is made up of shotguns manufactured before 1899, including English, French, and Belgian shotguns. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. No maker's name at all. The numbers 138 G(looks like a 1) are under the proof mark. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. IMPORTANT NOTE! acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia Sorry! The Modern Shotgun. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Shotguns - Belgium Double for sale - Guns International Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. After years of looking at and trying Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. It has punched on one side of barrel 17.2, on the other side punched JC, EL ,pinfire symbol, K and crown on its top, E LG little crown under them in oval.Please help me to get the closest identification for this nice firearm. Bertrand Antoine & Fils On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. I have not fired it. The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. We have provided you to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided (copy right L.R. are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. Members . Clment-Neumann Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. carefully bound by threads. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. %PDF-1.3 R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Where did you find the Falla mark? A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum Key Findings. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. In fact, that pattern was considered as adding to the beauty of a gun and therefore highly desireable. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Quick Facts Brancquaert Louis 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Hi, Jeremy. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Worldwide Logistics for all your products. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Rich engraved. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. Bertrand Antoine Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. By Alain Daubresse. to identify the manufacturer. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). The blue is rough but the action works. There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Belgian Arms cie . Bernimolin & Cap Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Rifles & Musket Information. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. JavaScript is disabled. Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). Thanks again for the help! Comblain Dieudonn Joseph Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Designates rifled barrel. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Burrard, Major Sir Gerald. No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one cant get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one cant find the inspectors mark. One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. I also looked at other European proof marks but didn't find the one you mention: compare http://www.cornellpubs.com/Catalog/proof-marks-intl.pdf. Arendt Maurice Colleye Henri Joseph I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. will it take normal 12 gauge shells then? Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. % The rifle requirements were developed through a process of lengthy trials and included, most notably, the box magazine that could be loaded by stripper clip or by. 10 Biggest American Gun Companies Share a Rich History - Wide Open Spaces Burlet Hello,I have a flintlock rifle that is stamped "spesco corporation made in Belgium" on the top of the smoothbore barrel. Clment Charles Philibert Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. Ancion Jacques & Cie First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made. Britte Frres You may know how to do this: put the ramrod down the barrel and mark it with a pencil at the muzzle. How do I price this piece? Please - no questions about your old guns. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Do you have any information on them? 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Hits and Misses: Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks - Pinterest Hi, your shotgun was made after 1924 due to the Perron-Liege proof marks. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Baker, David J. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! U.S.A.Most pistols exported from the United States are not proof marked in their country of origin. rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Home | Login | Register. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. Berleur Michel Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Small Arms from 1800 to 1899 - Military Factory Counet Philippe Each new gun is presented in a best oak and leather case complete with canvas outer and a full complement of accessories. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. Collette Lopold Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . "Any maker's name or place of origin? Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. x\}WT_0qk E%Mp8@S36QG7=TFx,P?wU]4v>3}wc)0~_+. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. A fine antique 18th Century Double Barreled English Percussion Sporting Gun by the famous maker Henry Nock London, caliber 14 mm . Applied to all gun not made in Belgium but proofed in Belgium. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms. Thanks for any help you can offer.Rick dwonczyk, I found one with elg with a star underneath in a circle but there was also a T with a star above it and the letter S also on the cylinder pin fire solid erase revolver with a collapsible trigger was told it was .31, Hi, Rick. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. CLEMENT, J. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2. Mauser Serial Numbers DatabaseMAUSER PISTOLC-96 (BROOMHANDLE)DATES OF I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. I can't tell if it was proved for nitro: those have a lion over the PV. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Gun Markings - OldGuns.net 3 vols. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. Shotgun Manufacturers - Types of Shotguns for Auction at GunBroker.com